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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:55:00 -
[1]
Earning SP by actually playing the game.
My opinions and percieved problems
-CCP's pov on ingame interaction for training skills is boring and unsatisfying. CCP thinks that simply logging in and changing skills is sufficient skill training progression.
-Not everyone plays eve for the same reason, and for some simply progressing IS the endgame. For this playstyle, gaining more and more isk may not be stimulating enough. These people want to experience eve, fly more ships, fly ships better, or try out the different activities that eve has to offer.
-Players should be encouraged, but not required, to play eve in order to progress. And gaining more and more isk isn't necessarily considered progress. For instance i've got more isk than i'll ever need for what I can currently do in eve. Progress for me is waiting for my skills to allow me to do more or different things in eve. The only way I can achieve this is through skill training. My logging into eve and actually playing the game brings me no progress, thus the only progress that encourages me to log into eve is by skill training.
-I am all for the skill queue idea, but I fear it is not enough by itself. Sure logging in simply to skill train is boring and dull, but at least it got me to log in while waiting to meet certain requirements to <fly that ship> or whatever eve activity. With a skill queue there would be NOTHING encouraging me to even login in order to progress, unless CCP made actually playing eve a means of progress.
Goals
-To have an additional way for players to gain skillpoints in eve by actually playing the game.
Rough idea
-Players accumulate Potential at a rate of 1/1440% every minute of every day until their Potential Pool is full at 100%. (at the rate of 1/1440% per minute, 1day = 100% Potential)
-You can then earn SP by doing ingame actions until your Potential Pool is empty.
-Maximum Potential Pool I leave out as any value you or I provide would be arbitrary, should be decided by CCP what total % of SP should be earned by playing the game compared to normal skill training.
-Potential Pool is limited this way to prevent too much SP coming from playing the game.
-Im keeping this the core of the idea and not including how the SP be spent as I cannot think of a slam-dunk winner way with which to spend it. The challenges listed would need to be solved by CCP.
Pictures are worth a wall of text
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:56:00 -
[2]
Challenge: How to spend the SP
-The challenge is then, how do your spend said earned SP? In the example provided that 5 SP can only be applied to those skills involved. You'd essentially need to track every source of SP earned as individual SP token objects and then spend them individually. Or you could just pick a skill and select to spend all available SP tokens. There are major flaws in SP tracking and player confusion involved in this Virtual Pool approach. It could be great if there were a simple way to manage the SP.
-Another approach that would still reward the skills related to the rewarded activity would be to not pool up the earned SP, but to simply have the player select a skill in which to funnel earned SP into. Then if the reward of the activity completed allows your selected skill to be rewarded, the SP is funneled into that skill. Otherwise no SP is rewarded.
-Yet another much simpler idea for SP rewarding would be to simply store all of the earned SP into a pool that the player can then spend on ANY skill. This would by far be the simplest to implement and possibly the fairest, although not quite as neato or roleplayish as imagining the character gaining SP through putting those skills to use.
Challenge: Rewarding actions
-The rewarded actions would need to be indisputable/unexploitable measures of accomplishment. Activating modules and going afk or something similar must not be rewarded.
-Not every accomplishment may be rewardable, as I don't pretend to know of every playstyle in eve. The major ones are rewardable however. Ship combat resulting in a kill, Production resulting in a ship/module/charge, mining asteroids resulting in ore in your cargohold, finding scan results. 0.0 starbase logistical stuff I don't know so much about though, plus they are corp/alliance level so rewarding that is a can of worms.
Despite the potential shortcomings of the idea, I believe that earning additional SP by actually playing the game is a good one. Please support!
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:27:00 -
[3]
I just want to make it clear that this is an idea for additional sp earnings, not removal or nerfing of the current skill training system.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.25 17:15:00 -
[4]
Well clearly this proposal will flop so whatev~ **** it.
I play daoc, gw, and eve.. and I won't deny I played wow.
I like eve's skill training. Its like wow's rest xp or daoc's /freelevel. A way for casual players to invest less time into the game over a longer period of time and achieve the same results.
And I like that eve is for the casual side, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't play this damn game if it weren't.
Buuut eventually you ARE going to play the game a little bit, and its more fun when that time is rewarded. Even casual gamers invest time into games.
Or don't tell me none of you have ever felt like you've just been logging in to skill train at times. :p
Now that this has already clearly flopped, which im used to cause I suck at conveying what is in my head, I'd just like to say that what I had in mind was extremely casual. We're talking like a power-hour of gaming.
The *Potential Pool*, like a rest XP bar that takes a day to fill up with X amount of SP.
But, could take like a mission or 2 to exhausted. Or produce a spaceships (however that works), or scan out a site, or mine 1 belt.
My idea wasn't to encourage ****-socking, but just a little sum'in sum'in to reward people for actually playing eve now and then.
Or hell, maybe the potential pool could have built up over a whole week and you could spend sunday playing and feel more rewarded for playing.
Now that thats out, **** you guys for calling me a wowtard. Go **** yourselves that hurt my feelings!
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:21:00 -
[5]
I drew a picture! That alone is reason enough for CCP to implement my idea by noon tomorrow afiak!
But seriously I close most of the post I begin to write where im trying to be taken seriously. All ideas have potential flaws. Most ideas can be flawed in the details. Hell a good bit of the ideas that I am against have great potential if executed flawlessly.
I actually did think about this one quite a bit, and recognize there are many ways it could hurt or ruin eve if the details aren't implemented well. But if done just right, people wouldn't feel they need to log in to advance, yet be pleasantly rewarded with a little extra when they do.
Its all about the details, much like speed tanking. Good idea, TONS of potential failure to be too strong or too weak, but if done just right then its both balanced and still worthwhile.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.26 06:19:00 -
[6]
Holy **** a supporter, you must be my alt.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.26 16:39:00 -
[7]
Your mother says hi.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:00:00 -
[8]
You're fat like scarlet.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:27:00 -
[9]
Got a CSM delegate thumbs up BOOSH ITS ALL GRAVY FROM HERE ON~
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.10 19:58:00 -
[10]
Don't hate, its actually a good idea. I can't help it if my details are too advanced for most.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 05:53:00 -
[11]
My specific details do not allow for abuse.
The details are everything.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 15:56:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO on 11/12/2008 16:00:55
Ok I'm sorry I was intentionally being mean in the last two posts but heh you stop caring as the approval rating goes down. 
Lets imagine that I'm eating an apple pie and its too runny.
I write a proposal to have the next pie be less runny.
It is a forum poster's nature to assume the worst possible implementation of this proposal.
OH HOLY CHRIST NO! DON'T MAKE IT LESS RUNNY, FFS I DON'T WANT TO EAT SANDPAPER I WANT TO EAT PIE!
Even if I included within the proposal specific details that would ensure the next pie would not be dry or like eating sandpaper, most forum posters wouldn't care or even bother to read that.
Even if I repeated and emboldened those details.
Even if I added a goal that specifically stated that I would not want the pie to resemble sandpaper, highlighted that statement in a different color, and underlined it, most forum posters would still ignore it, repeat their fellow man in having no desire to eat sandpaper, and tell me to go back to the desert.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 19:42:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Akita T
Not even one (1) extra SP per hour.
Yeah I bet you'd quit eve if that happened.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.11 23:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
and makes active play basically mandatory for fast progression...
Thank you for admitting that you never really were concerned with this.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
You'd want to keep going until your daily quota of rested bonus was spent.
And thats where the details would come into play, finding the sweet spot.
Theres the everquest way of being required to play, and the eve way of not needing to play at all.
There are benefits to both and downsides to both.
Actually logging in to play everquest feels more rewarding than logging in to play eve.
NOT logging in to play eve if you don't feel like it feels much better than not logging in to play everquest.
On the flip side everquest is a grind, and logging in to play eve is not rewarding at all sometimes.
The important thing would be to reward the vastly diverse playstyles that any particular player enjoys doing for fun. Thats the difference between grind and fun.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.12 16:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Akita T
So, bottom line, the EFFORT required to implement a system where people WOULDN'T just end up half-exploiting it thanks to alts or friends is just too big, while the end-result is not only insignificant for gameplay, but also regarded as a bad thing by quite some people.
Considering CCP has a lot of things that are way easier to do and a lot of people consider beneficial, this idea makes no practical sense.
The effort to implement could be massive undertaking. The initial idea definitely. Or CCP could already have a system designed, who knows. I can't help but assume CCP think about this kind of thing a lot more than I do.
But then again everything you do in eve is some sort of transaction on the server side. Buy something, sell something, move something, blow something up, do a mission, mine ore, refine ore, research something, build something, scan something, hack something, etc something~
They're all already in the game as some sort of transaction, and those are just the ones that give feedback to the client.
I think it could be pretty easy to implement depending on how complicated you wanted to get with it.
The first way I proposed (the initial idea represented by the picture), I agree with you it would take a good bit of effort to get right, especially with making it easily understandable by the player. The third way however I think would actually be pretty easy.
Plus just imagine what the investment into that complicated architecture could do for achievement tracking.  Theres all sorts of player personalization potential in eve, and tbh I'd like it if they tracked my actions whether they reward it with SP or not.  Oh so i've made that much money total selling stuff, spent that much money buying stuff, hauled more veld than chribba, delt more damage than shrike, discovered more phenomena than captain kirk.
As far as exploits, exploits happen and you really just have to accept that things will be exploited by some players.
But that really isn't important if it provides enjoyment for the majority of players.
Remember quake 3? It has terrible lag. They made a patch one time that made it playable, but apparently susceptible to hacking, so they turned it off and the lag was terrible again.
You get the idea, you never want to deprive your majority just because something has some flaws that a couple asshats will take advantage of.
You just limit the amount of damage those asshats can cause. imo~
And about no added value. I believe it would be a large added value to most players. For some its a playstyle goal that is totally missing from eve, for others its just extra gratification for playing eve.
For those that don't give a crap, I completely understand, and wouldn't have them change their ways at all.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.12.12 18:59:00 -
[17]
I admit even I specified design against allowing power-grinding, but mostly because thats what all of eve's current players are used to.
..
I admit that is very "keeping up with the jones's" of me.. Sader makes good points and introduces and represents a playstyle that is very unpopular in eve.
Question is then, should Sader be considered a valid player and a valid playstyle, or should he GB2WOW*? (*which isn't funny btw, you can stop that ****wit childish nonsense anytime now)
This is a unique discussion because its essentially opposed by people that, rather than being motivated by wanting something for themselves, instead are motivated by NOT wanting others to have something.
I suppose you'd run into the same problem in wow if you proposed a passive skill training system. "Hell no, earn it! GB2EVE!" Even though i'd be perfectly fine with people to passively gain experience in wow and also be able to earn it. Ditto for eve.
But then again I'm in support of most things as long as it doesn't take away from the experience of others.
Saber, ironically your playstyle is fully supported as far as gaining isk and resources is concerned, but suggest the same idea for gaining isk and eve players will look at you like you're Jove or something.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.12.12 19:00:00 -
[18]
Drake you aren't mature and the fact that you even bring it up proves it.
I thought this thread was over and you weren't gonna post anymore? |
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nick Domani
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Nick Domani
Originally by: Sader Rykane
I challange you all to give me one VALID reason, for why this shouldn't be implemented in some way or form?
OK, here's one:
Originally by: Sader Rykane
I'm a power leveler and I admit that I would power level the **** out of myself given the oppurtunity in Eve Online.
Once again, why is this wrong? So apparently advancing your character more quickly through your own efforts is a bad thing?
No, implementing a system that its proponents freely admit they will abuse is a bad thing.
If a system is being used as intended it isn't abuse.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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